Kate is the VP of Executive Development at Meta, where she develops senior leaders across all locations and products (WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, Quest, Horizon, etc.) to best equip them to lead into the future. She is a specialist in women’s leadership, executive coaching, team and organizational effectiveness, and global skill building.

Prior to Meta, Kate founded the company Culturosity to build awareness of cultural differences, and was a partner with the Exetor Group from 2011-2016, leading executive development initiatives on the West Coast for the firm.

Kate has co-authored two books, Building Cultural Competence and Putting Diversity to Work. She is also an author of the Self-Discovery and Bridging Cultures series of the Cultural Detective® tools. She is a frequent presenter at international conferences on the dynamics of culture and leadership in organizations.

She holds a distinguished Masters in Intercultural Communication from the University of Bedfordshire, UK and is a summa cum laude graduate of Northwestern University in the US. She is certified in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®, ArgonautOnline™, Hogan Inventories, the Tilt 360 and the International Profiler™ and is an ACC coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her work has been featured in media worldwide, including CNN's Business Traveler and the Dubai daily Gulf News.

Kate has lived in the US, Japan, France, England, Spain, and Denmark and is now based in California. She is the proud mom of two girls, the wife of a California fire chief, and an entirely average Wordle enthusiast who occasionally guesses the right word in less than four tries.

Find Kate on LinkedIn

Money Talks are hosted by Lisa Clements, owner of Clear Springs Wealth. (www.clearspringswealth.com)

Lisa is a financial strategist and investment manager who specializes in helping professional female leaders secure their financial future. She builds ongoing relationships with her clients, helping them save money in taxes, build wealth through investments, and make sound financial decisions for the future.

Lisa can be reached at: lisa@clearspringswealth.com

How To Connect with Lisa:

•Download 3 Free Savings Hacks 1 Page PDF

•Ask Lisa a question on Instagram

•Submit a money question for Lisa to answer in an upcoming episode:

Email lisa@clearspringswealth.com

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kate: I wish as a younger person, I had taken my lack of understanding of investment and turned it earlier into an area I just leaned into, learned, engaged somebody. I wish I had built that muscle earlier, because it has 100% served me. And I wish I hadn't waited.

[00:00:26] Speaker: Welcome. I'm Lisa Clements, founder of Clear Springs Wealth. Money Talks with female leaders aims to break taboos surrounding women and money and boost your own financial confidence. You'll hear powerhouse women share their personal and professional experiences with money. They tackle questions spanning from why money is important, how money has shaped their careers, and how much they spend on a bottle of wine or a one week vacation.

I hope you enjoy.

[00:00:53] Lisa: Kate, hello and welcome.

[00:00:56] Kate: Hi, so good to be with you, Lisa.

[00:00:58] Lisa: I am so glad you're [00:01:00] here, and I'm so grateful for your time today. I know you've got an extremely compact schedule. It was actually three months in the making to get you today, so I have been looking forward to it.

[00:01:15] Kate: I'm sorry, that's a, that's an interesting reflection on my calendar.

[00:01:21] Lisa: I mean it only as a compliment, only as a compliment to know that we're in the presence of greatness. I say that with the utmost sincerity, because you came into my life while I was working at Facebook, in a Director level role, and had talked with my Manager about getting coaching.

I was fortunate enough to get mapped and matched with you and, oh my gosh, game-changing coaching. And then ironically enough, you end up joining Facebook, and I leave Facebook. You joined in leadership development, now you're doing [00:02:00] executive development. I would love for you to tell our listeners a little bit about your background.

We know that you're at... I'll use Meta now instead of Facebook, I'll be appropriate. But before that, let's go back. Tell us a little bit about what you went to school to do, how your careers progressed, and then give us some fun personal facts. I know you're married. I'd love to hear about who all lives in your house with you....

your little people, your little beings. However you want to tackle that, I would love for you to just give us an introduction to yourself.

[00:02:33] Kate: You bet. I still remember what building we're in when we had our first coaching session, so that is testament to the impression... I've had the good fortune of coaching many people in my time, and our meetings stood out.

So it's fun to reconnect. My path. Yes. So at Meta right now, I'm responsible for executive development. So I think about the growth needs of our senior-most leaders and then help to meet those with coaching, team development, programs, you name it. [00:03:00] I have one of the most rewarding jobs, I think, in the world.

I think, as we can get into... money follows passion, not the other way. But my background is not a linear one. In the sense that I never intended to join Facebook. They were a client of mine.

I, prior to Facebook, was with an executive development firm called Exetor. I was one of eight partners and worked in depth with a lot of key clients... Nike, WPP, McKinsey, eBay, PayPal, Facebook. And then Facebook recruited me inside at the time... been there for seven years. But my background, my undergrad was Communications, Sociology, and Hispanic Studies. I had a double major & minor. My initial training was actually in intercultural communication. So I did a lot of work in the early 2000's on diversity as it related to national cultures and how's that influence your approach to power, [00:04:00] communication... expectations of individual versus collective response to things and so, that started me down a path.

My very first job was doing things like cleaning offices, way back when, but my first job out of college was a Marketing Director. And I had the experience that I don't know, I talk about this sometimes, but my, I was quite miserable in the job. And I couldn't figure out why, because it should have checked all the boxes.

I was earning good money. I was working in Century City and living in Beverly Hills.

Who gets that as a first job, right? And so that was my first interface with when things work in one realm, like I was earning good money, but you're not happy. What do you prioritize? And I took a couple of big leaps of faith for that, where I decided I was going to solve for getting more on point and on purpose.

So I did a lot of work with a book called, Flow, by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, which is about that optimal state [00:05:00] of engagement where you lose track of time because you're just so lost... becauseit's a challenging project, and it's tapping into the right skill sets. And when I did that analysis,

it was people trying to help them understand each other. And so I was like, what could I do that would just really breathe into that? And they tell you not to leave. Don't run away from a job. I moved to Japan, so I think it's fair to say, I didn't follow that adage. This was like, if you want to be effective at a global level, but you've only experienced one way of being...

what if you go to a culture where pretty much the opposite way of being is what is conditioned, celebrated, etc.? Like then you really learn yourself and you learn flexibility of how you're going to show up. That took me for almost a decade into running my own business, which was called Culturosity. Trying to help more people to build openness and curiosity to different cultures.

I found these companies that did [00:06:00] intercultural coaching and work where they're helping people transition from one culture to another... helping teams with a lot of different people from different backgrounds work effectively together.

So my husband is a CAL Fire Chief,

and I used to joke that we had the same job because I was called in to put out fires oftentimes when there was, like, miscommunication and trust issues. And really, my role was to help rehumanize people and help people understand, some of these issues just came down to fundamentally different belief systems, understanding, and if you could learn that about each other, you could actually build really healthy new patterns of collaboration.

Yeah, so I've worked in all kinds of different configurations... had my own business, subcontracted, now at a pretty big company, I think we can say, with Meta, and seen it through it's skyrocket growth.

[00:06:50] Lisa: When you went to Japan, did you go to Japan employed by somebody else? Or did you go there with the intent to start your own business?[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Kate: I went employed. So I was going to actually coach people in what was the final level of fluency. I would work with Phd students who were about to go to the US or to the UK, to understand the cultural elements of their moves and how to adjust beyond just verbal language... your ways of engaging to be more effective.

And I started doing coaching also there with people in Japanese corporations, on their sort of levels of cultural flexibility. So yes, I went with a job. But I'll tell you this, Lisa, because it's such a... you can't unwind the role money plays from these career choices because most of us work because we need money.

But you also want work to be more than money, I think. But like I'd left Japan, I had a great mentor at the time, and I had an opportunity in Japan where I was going to be promoted, which would have me traveling around Japan, which I quite liked the premise of. I also had an opportunity to work with an executive coach that I knew [00:08:00] in Los Angeles, and she was going to bring me into apprentice. I'd ghost written for her.

I'm a pretty, as you can probably tell... I think as soon as they came out, I don't know, it was like a decade ago with the, "gig economy", oh now you're explaining what I've been doing, right? Like I would

moonlight. I would ghost write for people to learn how they ran their businesses. I was just like, let me try things and see what I can do and put together different things to make my own way. And that tooled me up to make some pretty ... I would say, brave choices that many people weren't making.

So I had the high paying job in LA. Then I moved to Japan, still well paid, but a different dynamic. I reached out to my mentor and I said, which of those two options would make the most sense? And he says, "I'm actually about to do a cultural merger and acquisition between French, British and German aeronautics companies.

Would you come help me with that?" I was like, "Sounds fascinating. 100%." So I moved to the south of France.

Now, for anybody who's listening who also has like [00:09:00] family members and loved ones, they were watching this being like, high paying job in Beverly Hills, left-turn going to Japan...

Okay. But we know you, we get you. And I'm sorry, you're now in the south of France? And I kid you not, I took this as an apprenticeship. So I was unpaid. I was like with my mentor at that time. I'm now two years out of university. And I remember my parents lovingly come and they're like, "So we're just tracing the dots here.

So first you had this high paying job. Then you took this really interesting, good paying, but role in Japan. And now? You're earning nothing and living in the south of France with your mentor..." "Yeah, it's great. Isn't it?"

[00:09:46] Lisa: I'm on a trajectory.

[00:09:49] Kate: I'm on a trajectory. This is what it looks like people.

My parents like, "Which way?" And... but it was at that moment, unlike when I had been [00:10:00] in Century City doing that work, where I was so confused about why the work I was doing didn't feel really meaningful that I had such a contradictory depth of clarity. And I remember I've talked about this since with my Dad. Because I can imagine as a parent, I'm a parent now, and I can imagine that being a scary proposition. You want the best for your kids and you don't always know what that will look like, what choices they're making today... what that will yield. I was like, 'Yeah, I'm on-path Dad." This is back in the early 2000s. So some of this type of work was pretty much in its infancy. It wasn't well-established. They didn't have roles. I ended up going and doing my Master's in Intercultural Communication and had to go to the UK for it, because there wasn't really anything really substantive...

There were a couple of programs in the US but again, I'm like if I want to specialize in global dynamics, I should keep getting new points of view that will extend my, and open my aperture. But I talked to my Dad about it, and I remember I felt clear. So I didn't even feel like I had to [00:11:00] defend the decision, which was so telling.

I'm like, "Yeah, this is the right place for me right now." And when I talked to my Dad, he said, "It was your own confidence and you've always made good decisions. So I didn't question that." And I was like, oh, note to self... do the same when your child comes and, "You're doing what? I'm sorry?" Yeah. It was such a gift... like to both feel their worry, and then feel their support. So yes.

[00:11:26] Lisa: How long were you in the South of France?

[00:11:29] Kate: South of France wasn't that long. It was about gosh, I think the project was something eight months.

And then my then boyfriend, now husband, was having a slightly hard time following me around the world. So I... fair enough. So I moved, we moved back then, and a year later, we moved together to the UK and decided all other moves would be moves together. So it wasn't long there I... what was interesting is I had just started to amalgamate doing work with all these [00:12:00] different little consultancy firms.

It gave me a great purview into how different people ran their businesses. I still had mine, which I had set up in Japan. And I was fortuitous in 2008, where the economy started tanking. But I ended up being in pretty good standing with all those different consultancies that I was working for.

So even though the bottom of their business dropped out, it was like a, one of those ironic diversification strategies that because I was so diversified and where I was doing work, my work didn't dry up. And that was like, I would love to say that was highly intentional. It wasn't. I think it was one of those times where I got lucky while other people weren't lucky.

I was also lucky that I was still traveling around as the housing market fell. So we weren't ready to buy a house. There's some couple places where I've lucked into our circumstances. Other times I've deeply earned it. But in these cases, it was more... I wasn't solving for financial [00:13:00] diversification, I was solving for that gig economy, like maximum learning in the fastest and most high yield way. And that's how I had structured it.

[00:13:07] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Kate: But then increasing, I also remember the experience of once being at a company and handing over the business card and then realizing I handed the wrong business card because I was representing the wrong company.

And I'm like, "Okay." So I started to consolidate, and that's where I went to Exetor and was just like, "I really like doing work and I like how you do work." So I limited to Exetor and my own company. And then when I became a partner, I needed to, of course, fold down my own interests. So a very linear path, as you can tell...

[00:13:38] Lisa: Super... super... It would be easy to replicate, I'm sure.

[00:13:46] Kate: I gotta tell you, Lisa, when people come career seeking and they're like, "How do you become like a VP? How do you become an executive at a big company?" and I'm like, "Maybe don't aim for it?"

Interestingly, I actually think there's some [00:14:00] meaningful lessons, and I know we're going to get more into the finance, but I never aimed for it. And you can aim for it and go after it, but you can also, I think, feel like you're hitting more setbacks.

I always solved for doing what was the most meaningful, interesting, career-growing work. And then, that ended up leading me to this position that I'm in now.

[00:14:22] Lisa: I love that. I think that in itself is a great learning for anyone who's listening for sure. Now tell us briefly before I, I go specific into some money questions.

You are...

[00:14:35] Kate: Married.

[00:14:36] Lisa: Okay. And two girls?

[00:14:39] Kate: Two girls. They are nine and soon to be seven and delightful. Yes.

[00:14:45] Lisa: Family pets?

[00:14:47] Kate: No pets. Although we have some close friends who have an incredibly trained service dog, and anytime they go on vacation, we ask for first dibs of taking care of Aubrey. We have a dog loaned sometimes [00:15:00] to us.

[00:15:00] Lisa: I love that. I'm a huge dog fan, so I always got to get the dogs talked about somehow.

[00:15:07] Kate: Yeah.

[00:15:08] Lisa: All right. So tell us, let's shift into some of the money questions and overlay this now with hearing about your background. Let's start with the, 30,000 feet question. Why is money important to you?

[00:15:25] Kate: Yeah. I don't know if I have a typical answer to this. Money itself isn't important to me. What money affords, which is freedom, is very important to me. And it's like for me, it's a freedom from worry. Like I, I want to be, I thankfully am at a state where I'm a anxious oriented person. So I want to get to a place where I'm not spending cycles like at the grocery store being like, can we do this? Can we not do this? Et cetera. So there's like a freedom from worrying that a certain threshold of earnings obviously [00:16:00] affords and, choice and the like realization of yes, we can go have this amazing experience girls.

And it still means we can have a lovely meal tomorrow and I'm not having to make trade offs and that feels liberating. And so that's probably my goal. And I've never chased money itself, but freedom is a gift to all of us. And to the degree money affords you that, I'm all in for it.

[00:16:23] Lisa: Okay. Okay. Was money talked about when you were growing up? Like, how much of that definition has come from your upbringing?

[00:16:35] Kate: Great question. Money was talked about in my family from the perspective.. My Mom was an immigrant and she grew up in post-World War II rationing. My Dad, his father was an immigrant, and was a probation officer and a butcher and actually slept under a bridge at one [00:17:00] juncture to be able to go get his college education.

So there was a lot ofstory in our family of lived experience of hardship coming from not having enough money or means. And so that translated into... I think I've had, I think I've been a Wells Fargo customer since 1981 or something, which just means I was two before revealing my... I'm 44.

And it was like, my parents taught me young. And yeah, I had my little savings account and I cleaned offices, I babysat... Like, the hustle of an immigrant family and the understanding that money mattered was deep in our psyche. And there was sometimes I felt, and I would say there was sometimes of a felt pressure, so I do believe in generational Maslow's hierarchy.

So if you take on my Dad's side, my Grandfather who didn't have much means. It was an Italian family. So actually his newspaper money ended up going toward his older brother, so that one of their children could go [00:18:00] get the education... was put through dental school. Hence why he found his own means, lived under the bridge, decided he also wanted to get the education. And as you can imagine, his lived experience of not having money can prevent education, and education opens up all kinds of doors of opportunity. He wanted that to be different for his kids.

[00:18:21] Lisa: Okay.

[00:18:22] Kate: Amongst my Dad's side, we literally have merchant banker, astrophysicist, an IT sort of specialist, career counselor, so there's some diversity, and lawyer. But he was just very adamant that all of his kids became professionals because of the freedom, I think, that afforded them.

And then from the generational Maslow's hierarchy... you think about some of the choices I made, and I was gifted a certain degree of security, because my parents had worked so hard. They all had become professionals that if you think about Maslow's hierarchy... It's like, my Grandfather was just trying to make [00:19:00] basic needs.

My father's generation was able to achieve a higher level of needs met with belonging. And our generation was free to be like, "What do you want to do?" First time in three generations... I could entertain that choice. So a real privilege, of course. But a real clarity that there was still interlinking.

So we were always mindful of money, watching money. My Mom, having grown up... she would water down milk because she knew it could only go so far in her family when she was a kid. So there was a lot of stretching dollars, making things work... probably longer than we needed to. My Mom was in the publishing business. My Dad worked for Visa and was a merchant banker. So we had means, but that upbringing is hard to grow out of.

[00:19:46] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:19:46] Kate: If that makes sense.

[00:19:47] Lisa: Yeah. You said your Mom was an immigrant from where?

[00:19:51] Kate: From England. She came over in 1976. She met my Dad after he had been in South Africa during the apartheid, and they met in Bath, [00:20:00] England and the brave soul came to the US never having been here and moved here. Yes. And, being an immigrant here and then starting up her own business in another culture and stuff like that. It had its, its unique dynamics. But I could see in her a lot of the post-World War II rationing mindset coming to fruition. And I could see the same in my Dad, of like money wasn't guaranteed and so you saved it and tried to make the most of it for sure.

What's interesting, and I have a perspective on this as it relates to women, is... I was taught to save money. I was never taught about investing money.

[00:20:46] Lisa: Interesting. Okay.

[00:20:49] Kate: And I do think some of that has just the roots of maybe an immigrant family, where you're trying to make ends meet and the idea of investing sometimes goes above and beyond just the survival mode [00:21:00] that you're in. But then we lived in a very affluent community in the end, like my parents absolutely made it.

And I don't think... you know, while I had a bank account from a young age, and I remember learning about high-yield savings, that was the extent of my education around investment.

So that was the biggest blind spot, until I chose otherwise. I don't think in our educational system here in the US you get much of that kind of training in the things that make life actually work.

And financial wellbeing is one of them that we don't do much around that, which is why it's important to have people like you helping people out. Yeah.

[00:21:41] Lisa: I'm curious. Do you have siblings?

[00:21:44] Kate: I do. Yes.

[00:21:46] Lisa: Brothers? Sisters?

[00:21:47] Kate: I have a half sister who's 14 years older than me. And then I have a brother who's 18 months older than me.

[00:21:53] Lisa: Okay. Do you think you and your brother received the same messages regarding money? Do you think it was the same for [00:22:00] both of you, or was there any modification of the message based on your gender?

[00:22:06] Kate: I think the nature and nurture came to bear here. Lovingly, in case my brother Chad ever listens to this, I was the better saver. So...

[00:22:18] Lisa: We love you Chad. Yes.

[00:22:20] Kate: Yeah, we love you Chad. But let's be real, right? No. So in an interesting way, what I don't know is... I actually think we got the same... I don't think my brother was given a different form of education. I don't think my parents were taught much about investments. You had to learn that as you went.

Or even how to think about taking on debt versus savings. There's so many facets of this. So I don't think we got different educations, but my parents were pretty committed to bringing us up equally. So I, I'm not saying that my experience is typical.

[00:22:59] Lisa: [00:23:00] Okay.

[00:23:00] Kate: I think many people might have grown up in families where there's an assumption at some juncture, you needed to train the boys about the finances in a way that you didn't get that training as a young girl. But my family was even on those.

And the reason I referenced nurture versus nurture... If there was somebody to take to the next level of thinking, it would probably have been me, because I was the good student, the saver, following all the rules. And I think parents of my brother, they were just being like, "Okay, so if everything you earn, you spend, and then you get a credit card..." It was a different starting point on the equation, I think.

Got it. Yeah..

[00:23:40] Lisa: Do you think you or your brother received any self-sabotaging messages about money? Like you've alluded to the saving versus investing...

[00:23:52] Kate: Yeah. There was that adage that's like being penny wise and pound foolish, which references [00:24:00] probably British pounds or some other currency... where we're talking money here.

[00:24:04] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:24:04] Kate: And one, one component of that is that you can spend all your time saving money, but if it isn't invested well, you're really losing out. It's like you're not saving, right? So that, you're right, that did feel like a self-limiting belief that I don't actually attribute to my parents, but more society. I'm like, is anybody getting trained really early on investment? I haven't seen that happening, and we should.

But the other thing I do think I learned from my parents, which I still am working on my sort of line with... is I described a dynamic where our means got to a place of freedom is ultimately the goal for money. My parents fear of not having enough money lasted longer than it needed to.

[00:24:53] Lisa: Okay.

[00:24:54] Kate: And so you see that... the coupon clipping, the always saving. I can tell you a story, if we get to it, of [00:25:00] how I see that desire to save and always be judicious with money. And there's like times where, I remember reading in a book, a great example... I think the book was, If you're so darn smart, why aren't you happy?

And I'm like, apparently I should read this book because it does resonate. I'm not always 100 percent happy, and I think I'm smart, so why don't...? And some of it actually came down to our value systems. And he gave the example, which resonated with me of going through, I think it was a salad bar line.

And his brother happily chose as many chickpeas that he wanted on his salad, and checked out and didn't think twice about the doubling in weight. And I'd be the kind of person like, "Ooh, gosh, you know that those do look good, but then that gets heavy." And his point was like, when do you solve for joy?

And when do you deny yourself from that, under the premise of like, always being thoughtful? Is one really good salad with all this, and then not having a salad the next [00:26:00] day and bringing your lunch, might be the answer. So be conscientious about how far some of the messages carry. And I do think that is something that can easily become self-sabotaging for me.

I've always got a monitor... versus being like, splurge a little. You deserve it. And you're worth it. And your idea of splurging is chickpeas on a salad. So I think we're okay.

Anyway, the example resonates deeply in the book. Yeah.

[00:26:28] Lisa: Yeah. So would you say that's a money belief today that you wrestle with... as far as... You still have that saving mentality, but it's a matter of constantly challenging yourself on when you might be over-saving versus living into the freedom that all your hard work has earned?

[00:26:49] Kate: Yes, or that fear of not having enough. I remember my husband, Jon and I, we took a honeymoon... and when you own a business, you don't know where that income [00:27:00] is going to come so it manifested when I ran my business and making sure I wasn't just saying yes to the next project because it equated to income. But yes to the project, because it was the right work.

That one took me a while to learn. And if I could go back, I would have just encouraged myself to trust more that the right work would come and staying true to that, would yield. But, my husband and I were down... to give you the concrete example... We went down to Buenos Aires and I think I, wherever I was in my career, I was worried as we were combining finances, like how we would make ends meet. AndI have come into, given the roles that I have played, and ironically, by not choosing... money has chosen me. I'm in a great situation. I earn great money. But I've been slow to catch up to that, if that makes sense.

So I remember even then, which would have been 15 years ago, we were at a bar. I took a cocktail napkin at the bar, [00:28:00] and I was like, "Okay, what do we need if we're really going to live big?" And we defined what living big is, as a new couple without kids looked like. And it was like, "We're going to go out to eat two times a week. Oh, yeah." It's just... so you can feel that saver in me come through, right?

As you hear these stories... pencil it out. And I've actually counseled a number of people, through the layoffs at Meta. And I said, "Just do the math. So your needs..." Yeah. You've been impacted to say, "Okay, how long can we go without finding a job?" Because that, that pending fear or dread of not being able to make ends meet is super-real. It's an existential threat. Anyhow, in the cocktail napkin example, which is a story now very long, my second, sorry about that. We did it, and we did the math. And I was like, "Oh, okay. And we're living in our one bedroom." I was like, "Oh, I actually don't need to earn all that much." Or as much as I thought we did.

And that was what like a really pragmatic exercise... ended up being one of the most powerful [00:29:00] for me in authorizing me then when the wrong projects came in to be like, "Actually, no, I don't need that." Because I can still go out to eat and live my big life going out to eat two nights a week... with a couple other arrangements.

So I do believe in figuring out the practices that help you wrestle whatever your self-sabotaging beliefs are or maybe unfounded thoughts... help you wrestle those to the ground.

[00:29:29] Lisa: Okay. While you have worked the last seven years at Meta, how have you managed your finances? Is that something where you and Jonathan sit down and you go through and every year like, what's our big life this year? Or is it something where you're in charge of the money? Or he's in charge of the money? Like how clearly delineated are your roles now when it comes to finances?

[00:29:57] Kate: Yeah, we partner on [00:30:00] almost every aspect. I tend to do our taxes. Because if you think about the configurations I've had, when you run your own company, you have to, your taxes are complex. When I joined as a partner, I had a K1, like a partnership structure. I think we filed in like 10 states and four countries because it was a small firm, but a global one. It was like always, it was hyper-complex.

So I was like, there's no way I could be like, "Here, honey, could you do these taxes?" And he's, "What are all these forms?" He works for Cal Fire. He's a government employee. He's, "I have my W2, like taxes are done." And I'm like, "Not exactly in my situation."

So I needed to learn from a business perspective, a lot of the tax-side. So it was easier for me to take and run that. Jon, I think, had more comfort going back to those original roots in investing early on. And he was, I think as a teenager, invested in Apple stock. That panned out, he said, "Yeah, but I sold it too early." And I was like, "I wasn't even thinking about Apple stock." With Meta, I started getting RSUs, so then I needed to pay attention to, "Okay, now I have equity. And [00:31:00] now I need to figure out some of these investments beyond..." I had a SEP, which is the... when you're part of a partnership, that's your retirement. Now I have a 401k, but it was really thinking about, what do you do with this equity that's coming in, and how do you think about different investments and debt load to carry, and things like that?

So we do that together. We worked with financial planners at key moments where we're like at transitions, and saying, "Okay, we want to buy a house," or, "We've just had kids." We were incredibly fortunate that our parents were able to support our education, very different than my Grandfather.

So that's been a commitment we've had. We want our two girls to be able to get a good education, and not walk out with a major debt. So that's a financial goal that we've had of, "Let's get them to get education." And by the way, Jon and my education was very different. I went to a private school, Northwestern, very pricey.... price tag. He ended up at Cal Poly. So I think the delta in our tuitions [00:32:00] was, I don't know. At the time, which was over 20 years ago, something like $35,000 a year. So as parents, you're like, "This could go one of two ways. One, which would be lovely. And the other, which would be..."

One of our financial planners, I think, pointed out, did the math for us once. She's, "If you have that goal...." Because our girls are two years apart... and so there'll be six years, in those six years, I forget what the capital outlay was, but it was something like... I think she was like, "You're going to need to assume $800,000 will go out if they choose the modern day private."

And I was like, "We got some saving to do." That just activated the saver in me. We're going to need to do some investing to make that happen. It was a sobering moment where you're like...

[00:32:46] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:32:46] Kate: How much can I have in a 529 college account? And how quickly can that morph into those types of fees? So, we've used financial planners to help us see forward, and then understand our own [00:33:00] risk-tolerance and profile and make choices throughout.

So, I will say it's been an area where you could probably see the 'penny-wise pound-foolish', where when I knew how to do my own taxes, because it was something I needed to learn or, with TurboTax help, of course. But it was like why would I pay $600 to someone? If that was the fee to get them paid. It's, "because they know how to do taxes a whole lot better than you, and can help you find tax strategies and your taxes end up being complex."

I've seen some of that old story pop up, as it relates to spending money in order to better understand your money and how to spend it... has been a harder one sometimes for me to step into.

And I, I can hear myself in that, and my husband's great. He's, "Yeah, that's an investment." And he'll put it in very practical terms. He's, "Think about it. If they give you one piece of advice and it yields one [00:34:00] stock that turns out well... 100% return on that investment..." I was just thinking about the outlay of cash and not what that might yield. So, you learn that about each other, and how to speak in a way that can help somebody understand a value proposition. If you have a partner, or even have a financial planner or a partner who can help break things down so that you can step through those kinds of stories that you might have. It's incredibly helpful.

[00:34:24] Lisa: Yeah. See, I'm going to use what you just said there as part of my advertising now. So that's very helpful.

[00:34:30] Kate: I'm on record, I think. Yeah.

[00:34:35] Lisa: I try to... it's hard to explain to people. We're so conditioned to want to, myself included, so conditioned to want to do our own taxes... "I'll figure it out. I'm going to save some money there." But I am amazed at some of the things I've learned about gift tax or just maximizing your tax brackets.

Or if you're leveraging a Roth... And I'm going, "Oh, I wish I would have talked to [00:35:00] somebody!" I would have saved myself thousands in taxes that I will now be paying in retirement, because I wasn't leveraging Roth like I should have been.

Yes. I thought I knew, I thought I knew.

[00:35:13] Kate: Speak into on that. I don't know if it's the same... this would be interesting if there's a gendered component here. But for me, I've got a little bit of fight in me as it relates to gendered experiences with things. So, I am more inclined if you're like, this isn't a women's world... finances. Oh yeah? Challenge accepted, right?

So it's like, all right, but you can also do this in a smart way, right? And so... I think there's sometimes... I'll share with you maybe my felt experience, which is sometimes the reason I've gone back to doing things on my own.

[00:35:52] Lisa: Okay.

[00:35:54] Kate: I hate being sold to. And I extra hate being sold [00:36:00] to when I feel like I'm being sold to as a woman.

So it's the classic scenarios... it's the very stereotypical situation of a woman going to a car sales shop and the person assuming you don't know anything about cars and talking down to you and mansplaining and so on and so forth. Nobody would like that... when you're being talked down to. But even as it relates to finances, I think I'm sensitive to that, because I've had other arenas in my life where I'm just like, don't underestimate me. That will activate me. But then, it can translate into being protective or I've had those experiences where I'm like, "Are you really spending my money well? And is this a standard fee? Or are you starting to take advantage of me because I don't understand?" And so then I might pull it back and be like let me just try and do it on my own. So there's a lot to unpack. And I think you mentioned with with you and I, like finding fit is so important.

Like we were, my husband and I just yesterday were on a call with our Schwab [00:37:00] advisor and he's great. I really like him. And he's not usually like pushing things. I feel I can trust him and ask open questions. But I still do pop into little elements of that. Like last night, he was talking about tax loss harvesting and potentially selling stock to take advantage of that.

And I pressed in and asked a couple questions about it. And I noticed his form of response felt a little mansplaining. He's, "Let me go back to why we do tax loss harvesting." And I was like, "Let me interrupt you. I know why we do tax loss harvesting, but the trading window is closed. What you're recommending isn't even feasible."

He's, "Oh yeah, good point."

And so I do think sometimes we can be underestimated. And for me as a woman, I think it's important to examine... One, like you're encouraging all of us to do. Examine your own relationship and stories with money, and look at then the intersections of how does that come to life in something like financial planning or [00:38:00] help.

And for me, it's that if you're going to stick me and sell me, I'm going to distrust you and try and take back the work. And then I'm doing a disservice to myself. First, find somebody who's taking the time to learn you, understand you, work with you, etc. And then it works really well. And this was not at all to knock my advisor.

He's actually great and gives good counsel, but it's a very recent example of...

[00:38:25] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:38:27] Kate: Finance is... it can throw people off, and we can step away from the space, because it's harder to understand sometimes.

And that has nothing to do with our capacity to quickly learn it.

[00:38:38] Lisa: I love what you shared because I think I myself can attest to... In previous times, when I've met with potential financial planners,

if I feel like I'm being sold to, or I'm being mansplained, then it is my inclination to want to just pack it all up [00:39:00] and walk away.

[00:39:02] Kate: Right.

[00:39:03] Lisa: I so appreciate your point about, it doesn't mean you then have to go struggle and do it on your own. It means that was probably not the best fit for you. And there is a right fit out there.

[00:39:17] Kate: Yes. 100%. 100%. Yes.

[00:39:21] Lisa: Yeah. And that's my big thing too. When I talk to potential clients is, "Hey, it's okay if I'm not your girl. Okay. But find somebody that you resonate with, cause I promise you there are things you can benefit from... even if you're a reader and a podcast listener." And yeah, anyway...

[00:39:42] Kate: Yes.

[00:39:44] Lisa: You've alluded to it, as far as... the pursuing your passions, doing what has fed you. And you alluded to the fact that the money has come to you without you setting the money as a goal. Can you tell [00:40:00] us a little bit more about that?

There are a lot of people, I think, who hear the message, pursue your passion. And their passion is teaching kids, but they're going to be, a daycare teacher, and they'll never make more than $32,000 a year. So pursuing passion doesn't always lead to money, but it can often lead to money. How would you speak to that for other women?

[00:40:28] Kate: Yeah. Yeah. There's... the right way to maybe frame it is I'm very passion-driven, but clear-eyed on the implications of that. In that beautiful example, thank goodness, we have people in this world. Teachers are the vastly underpaid.

I feel that, see that. I volunteered last week in my daughter's school. And I was like, I'm not religious, but bless you. You're a miracle on earth. And I'm so grateful. And it is, it astonishes me how much we [00:41:00] are underpaying teachers. So the clear-eyed piece is... follow your passions because at the end of the day, living in a way where you feel fulfilled, like you're doing good things, that is a freedom from misery. That is the highest order of freedom.

But then yes, you have to, of course, like if you're only going to earn $32,000, you may not be able to eat out two times a week. Certainly not, if you're living in the Bay area, right? Like you might need to, you might have to figure out... So the clear-eyed piece of it is it, the point is rather than starting with money as the goal.

And then figure out what kinds of careers can I do to have me make money? It's figure out what you want to do. Then figure out what paths, what opportunities, what careers would that, could that look like? And therefore, what is the financial situation? And then do I, am I okay with that? Will I want to supplement that and do a second job?

I worked lots of different arrangements. So to me, the other thing that I think it... So it's starting with your [00:42:00] passion, and then really doing your due diligence to find out, "Okay, what could this look like?" So when I realized in doing some of the interculture work, it's if I do that with companies that have budget, they will pay me for that. And that's where I can start to be on a pathway that will help me personally to succeed.

The real common pitfall that I actually see a lot of people like me, who are passion-driven, is you have to make sure you don't undervalue yourself. Because like, I would do the work I do for free. Don't tell anybody who controls my paycheck, right?

But for example, when I was running my own business... when you really enjoy your work and then it is crazy, like in coaching, like there is a price tag associated, because it is a unique... but it's very easy to underprice yourself. Growing up in that family that I did, where it's you save money to like, see a price tag at an hourly rate.

And you're like, "Oh, I can charge [00:43:00] that? I should charge that?" It can be really hard. So that's where the due diligence comes in of, learn the market, understand... so that you aren't pricing yourself out of things. It can be really helpful. I've always had tribes of people around me who support me and check me and help me see when either my love for the work, or underneath that, a subtle devaluation of the value of my work, could be getting in the way. And help me to level-set that and therefore price accordingly and stuff like that.

So I do think you have to do that work for sure, to be clear-eyed. And everybody needs to do the equivalent of the bar back of the envelope. What's your version of living big for your current stage? And what means would enable that? And it may be another way to think about it is just... don't do any in isolation.

Don't do just, "I'm just going to live my passion and hope it works out." Don't do the just, "I'm just going to earn money and hope it is fulfilling." It's do both of those. What do you need financially? What would living your most fulfilling life look like? And how to get the two of [00:44:00] those to intersect?

[00:44:01] Lisa: Do you have coaches or mentors in your life that you talk money with? Like I just got an X percent increase and my bonus is looking like X, like specific numbers? Or do you find that you commonly speak in ambiguous terms? I got a good bonus, or I'm thinking about what to do with my, ample increase.

Does that make sense? Do you find that you're specific or

vague?

[00:44:35] Kate: Probably depends a little bit on the context. In terms of my earnings, I am vague. Why? I think I've been conditioned that talking about what you earn can be a bit unsavory.And so, unless there's a real specific need.

So when I ran my own business, I would all the time like, "Gut check me on how I should price this." Right? Because I would, "Do I do a value based pricing on this? [00:45:00] Do I do an hourly based pricing?" There's so many choice points, and you're often swapping notes. So yes, I would 100% get down to specifics there. I don't think I've been in a situation where I need to share, "I just got this bonus. What should I do with it?"

It feels like a little braggy and usually I also know the answers... like we're saving for a house. I haven't been in a place where I would need to speak that to someone... other than the people that I have asked to play that role in financial counseling for us. So not necessarily with people like friends and family. Yeah. For those reasons. I think I was raised that it was unsavory and then there, there hasn't been a felt need... which is probably why I put it back in the unsavory camp.

[00:45:41] Lisa: That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. I want to go to the... this has been so fun. The last part of the interview, I like to go through some, quote unquote, speed round questions. Do you feel like you're ready?

[00:45:54] Kate: Oh. I'm ready as I'm going to be. Really ready. And then it's [00:46:00] dah... Are you ready?

[00:46:01] Lisa: I know. I need that. Who wants to be a millionaire music, to put in the background. Okay. Kate, what is one thing you'll splurge on?

[00:46:12] Kate: Oh, jewelry. And my version of splurge isn't super crazy. But yeah, like this ring... I like unique pieces. And if I travel and stuff, they carry memories with me. So it's like the thing that if a fire was burning in our house, I'd be like, obviously family. I don't know that I go for photos anymore because I got them digitized. I'm going for my jewelry box. I'm grabbing it.

[00:46:35] Lisa: Photos are in the cloud, man.

[00:46:38] Kate: Yeah. So yeah, digital version works. I'm good.

[00:46:43] Lisa: What is one thing you're super frugal with?

[00:46:47] Kate: Food, and the not wasting food. That's one that I grew up with... was the guilt trip of people are starving in some places. And so, just if I've already spent it... using what I have well. [00:47:00] So I like opening up the fridge and figuring out how to creatively use all the fresh ingredients, so there's not waste. Okay.

[00:47:07] Lisa: All right. What's the right percentage to tip?

[00:47:12] Kate: Man, in this culture it's getting higher and higher. I'm between 20% and 25%. And I'm conflicted about the pass you the can and ask for a tip being like, "Okay." The quick serves that actually, I know these are not high earning... so I usually do still give some tip. But I think our country's gotten a little... I much prefer us to have a more equitable system where we're giving people fair wage. But then, I know we're not though. 20% to 25%.

[00:47:39] Lisa: Okay. What's the right amount to spend on a car?

[00:47:44] Kate: I am utilitarian. So right now, it's the safest car on the market. It's going to protect my two little girls, and they will thrash it. For us, that has been an SUV, but higher end for the quality.

I've got a fire captain, so we're not driving around in a tin box. We're [00:48:00] going to drive around in a tank. So that's the, how we think about cars. And I think that has been anywhere from, $30,000 - $50,000. But we don't always buy new. The utilitarian part of it is like... why buy a new car right now, if the purpose is to cart around kids? So that surprises people. Again, I don't believe in spending money just because you have money in certain arenas. I believe about being smart, but I hear those childhood messages coming through as I say that, Lisa.

[00:48:29] Lisa: I love that though, that the self-awareness is huge, right? What about wine? You are in... you are right near wine country.

[00:48:40] Kate: Yes. Okay. So fun fact... Jon, who went down to Cal Poly, all his friends have really fascinating careers as coming out of a polytechnic school. One of his is a winemaker, whose bottles start at $1,500. And he will be the first to say, some of his favorite bottles of wine are [00:49:00] $20. And never spend based off of price. Spend based off of taste... like what you like. So yes, I don't think there's a right price point on wine. And if a really good winemaker has reinforced that, then, I feel like it's fact.

[00:49:16] Lisa: No kidding. If his bottles go for $1,500, I think there are going to be a lot of women who are really happy to hear that.

All right. What's the most extravagant purchase you've ever

made?

[00:49:33] Kate: It was a symbolic one. When I was promoted to Vice President at Meta, which was definitely a threshold change for a pay perspective. I bought myself... back to the jewelry. I bought myselfa small ring that had diamonds in it. Still Kate style. I think I got it like Nordstrom Rack or something. But it was the splurge. Like it was actually just the investment in myself without some purpose, except to celebrate myself, that felt incredibly foreign, but [00:50:00] therefore beautiful and meaningful. And I've not questioned that purchase once.

Now maybe if I bought it, like at, I don't know, Tiffany's instead of Nordstrom Rack, I'd be like, did you really need to buy that? It fit the mold and felt like a big, lovely splurge at the time for me.

[00:50:14] Lisa: Oh, that's great. That's great. You deserved it. You deserve it.

What do you wish you knew 10 years ago, that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self? Or think about the question as a... if you could share a bit of money, wisdom, knowledge, thinking about it, what would you wanna impart to other women?

[00:50:39] Kate: Great question. I remember... you might've been there, Lisa, when Melody Hobson came and spoke at a Facebook leadership day for women. Remember she talked about financial independence, and she was so non-negotiable. "Own your money. It's your money." And I was like, "Ooh, all right. Like I'm bringing this, but I'm like, what are we bringing? This is some fierce energy. I love it." And she [00:51:00] was so right. And I was so happy to hear... that would have been probably eight years ago. But I, 10 years ago, that premise of, "Another form of freedom is financial independence, whether it's independence from someone else's finances so that you have a freedom to choose a different structure in a relationship. One of the ways that we get freedom, is we do live probably below our means. We're not stretching every dollar and trying to figure it out. We've got that big savings goal for our kiddos, right? And we're aware of that.

We have, when you start as a young couple and getting to go out to eat two days a week is like, you're living big. It's a slightly different equation of what luxurious feels like over time. But I wish as a younger person, I had taken my lack of understanding of investment and turned it earlier into an area I just leaned [00:52:00] into, learned, engaged somebody. I wish I had built that muscle earlier, because it has 100% served me. And I wish I hadn't waited.

[00:52:14] Lisa: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending the time with us. I so appreciate what you've shared and just you making the time for this. So, continued success to you at META and in all areas of life.

[00:52:29] Kate: Thank you. And to you, I'm a forever fan, given our coaching. So I'm excited by all you're pursuing too.

[00:52:35] Lisa: Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening. Money Talks are hosted by myself, Lisa Clements, owner of Clear Springs Wealth. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone you think could benefit from talking more about money. Make sure you leave a rating, a review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can find show notes at clearspringswealth.com/moneytalks. Thanks [00:53:00] so much.